Overleg:Vöärblad

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As wiezigingen niet drek zichtbaor bin, klik dan op de onderstaonde verwiezing:
http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vöärblad&action=purge

Schryfwyse?[bronkode bewarken]

Moin leu. Ik kom hier nich zo vaak mer veurbie, mar noen wal. Ik had 't al vrogger zeen, mar noen vealt 't mie weer op: 't Veurblad steet in ne soort eenheedsspelling veur alle soorten Nedersaksisch. Ik heb d'r zöld gen probleem met, en aangezeen ik hier zo weainig meer doo he'k ok nich völle recht van protesteern, mar een ding wu'k wal wetten. Wie bint ooit nen keer begunnen met nds-nl: umdat leuj oet Nederland de "geweune" Nedersaksische Wikipedia nich leazen können zoln. A'j disse "grensoverschrijdende" spelling gebroekt, woarveur bu'j dan nog ne ampatte Nederlands-Nedersaksische editie neudeg? Steinbach (overleg) 19:44, 17 feb 2018 (CET)

Ha Steinbach, terechte vråge. De Nysassiske Skryvwyse is untwikkeld döär skryvers van disse wiki, en skryvers van de nds-de wiki dee sich nit kunnen vinden in de Sass'sche Schrievwies, den as der up de düütske syde döärdrükket wördt. Van beyde syden vünden wy dat et tyd wör üm es good te kyken wudöänig wy de dialekten verenigen kunnen under ene skryvwyse. Want twee wiki's vöär ene språke is gewoon een betken Robijn de goede. --145.131.246.244 08:46, 10 apr 2018 (CEST)

Veur wel is de Nedersaksische Wiki? Dudelik neet veur de moderspraekers, dee zölt nao een blik op de taal en spelling hier geliek vortlopen[bronkode bewarken]

Ik bin hier al een tied neet ewest, vrogger wa'k aordig actief op de Nedersaksische Wiki. Mar dizze Wiki is nou in een andere taal eschreven, een taal dee at neet besteet, nooit bestaon hef en zekers ok nooit bestaon zal. Dit lik op een soort uutprobeersel of kunstmatig mengsel van neet-bestaonde Nederlands-saksische en Duuts-saksische dialekten.

Mar veur wel is de Nedersaksische Wiki? Dudelik neet veur de moderspraekers, dee zölt nao een blik op de taal en spelling hier geliek vortlopen. De echte spraekers van Drents, Twents, Achterhooks of Grunnings herkent zik echt neet in de taal dee at hier gebruukt wordt. Ik wete neet of hier ok echte dialektspraekers actief bint, mar dat zo'j neet zeggen.

Der bint in Nederlands nog best völle mensen dee at Nedersaksisch praot of praoten kunt en nog völle meer dee et verstaon kunt en der een warm geveul veur hebt. Mar dizze mensen jaag ie vort met dit kunstmatige taaltjen hier.

Kiek, deur de erkenning veurig jaor hef et Nedersaksisch in Nederland nije kansen en nije andacht ekregen. Verpest dat nou neet deur dizze webbestae zo ontogankelik te maken veur de moderspraekers. Ginene zit hier te wachten op experimenten umme een zogenaamde eenheidsspraok met de Duutse Nedersaksen te maken. Dat mag ie best perberen, mar neet hier. Dee twee talen bint neet herenigbaar, van oorspronk was et inderdaod dezulfde taal, mar dat is neet meer zo. A'j daor met bezig wilt, do dat op een ander plek mar kaap neet de hele Nedersaksische wikipedia.

Ik vinne dat de Nedersaksische Wiki veur de echte spraekers van onze taal uut Nederland is. A'j mensen wilt anspraeken, schei dan uut mit dit taaltjen op et veurblad, dat helpt de zaak echt neet, volk.

Chamavian (Ingmar Roerdinkholder)

De taal is noch altyd etselvde, allinnig een andere skryvwyse, minder fonetisk mär eyrder historisk ebaseerd (up middelsassiske skryverye under andere). De Nysassiske Skryvwyse, is een gemeynskappelike skryvwyse van de neaderlandske en düütske dialekten. Et is geen pouging tot standardisering van de taal, wel tot standardisering van de skryvwyse. Jy maggen noch altyd juw eigen skryvwyse gebrüken, toch binnen der een bült gebrükers oaverstapped up disse skryvwyse, selvs bekende müsikanten hebben interesse etound. Up et vöärblad steyt de köäse vöär de Nysassiske Skryvwyse of de Algemene Nedersaksiese Schriefwieze noch altyd vry. Mid eyn klik up de knoppe (rechtsboaven) verandert et in de ANS (wår et vöärhinne in eskreaven was; een oaverkupelende skryvwyse ebaseerd up de NL skryvwyse). Servien (overleg) 12:30, 17 mrt 2019 (CET)
As boaven al steit, dat is en SKRYVwyse, an de språke sülven deit dee niks, man alleyn an de maneer desülvige olde bekende språke up to skryven. Dee is maked van lüde med neddersassisk as moderspråke vöär ander lüde med düsse moderspråke. Du büst hyr ni de eynige moderspråkler un kanst ouk ni vöär uns heyle språkgemeynskop spreaken. Ujanairi (overleg) 12:47, 17 mrt 2019 (CET)
In woorden as 'seen' en 'deep' kan de <ee> eleasen wörden as: zien, zain, zeen, zein, zeein / diep, daip, deep, deip, deeip. De <ey> in 'beyn' en 'steyn' kan eleasen wörden as: been, bien, bain, bein, beein, etc. (ofhankelik van et dialekt). Dit reduceert de optiske verskillen, mär de leaser kan selv bepålen (geen genöäl oaver 'ao' of 'oa', mär <å>) ho dee et üütsprikt. Et is natüürlik van de sotte dat wy eyn taal hebben, mär tachetigdüsend verskillende skryvwyses, en neet EYNE dee as se mid mekare verbindt, dat willen wy as wiki graege üütdragen. De gebrüker mag vervolgens selv bepålen in welke skryvwyse dee sikselv wil üütdrukken. Servien (overleg) 12:53, 17 mrt 2019 (CET)
Dee schriefwieze ken ik nog wal van Ron Hahn, ik hebbe völe met hum ewarkt an de Lowlands Linguists List en hee had daor ok ene schriefwieze dee as hier völe op lik. Ik vin 't mooi da'w ok de keuze veur de ANS hebt, dat ha'k nog neet ezene, maor jammer da'j dee neet as standaord in-esteld hebt, ie kriegt automatisch dee andere spelling, dat zal een bulte interesseerden drek ofschrikken en doon vörtklikken, weerumme nao de Naederlandstalige Wiki. Ik zee hier dinge as Veluwsk, Drentsk, Twentsk staon, met -sk, wat in Naedersaksische dialecten in Naederland neet of zowat nargens veurkump. Waorumme wordt dat zo gebruukt? Misschien jammer, mar de moderne varianten in Duutsland en Naederland bint tevöle uut mekare greuid um nog echt een en dezulfde taal te neumen. Of ie mot onnatuurlijk kunstmatige of olderwetse weurde der bij sleppen...

A'j onze taal echt wilt helpen in de praktiek, de leu in de dörpen en streken met kriegen wilt, denk ik neet dat ditte heur ansprek. Ik begriepe ow idealisme wal, heur, en de dreumerij van "Een Naedersaksische Spraok van Lauwers töt Keuningsbargen", maor realistisch en praktisch vin ik dat neet.

  Chamavian
Et hevt niks te maken med een pan-sassisk ideaal. Et is gewoon praktisk vöär saken as döärverwysingen, systeemteksten en breyder, vöär underwys up skolen, skryvkontrole up uw smartphone en wydgånde internationale uutwesseling. Et bouwt inderdaad wydter up et wark van Ron Hahn, mär wy hebbet et wat praktisker in estöäken en toopasbår maked vöär ALLE dialekten, ook den van u. De -sk kümt in heyl wat dialekten oaver 'n pål in düütskland WAL vöär (en in wat gevallen in Twente), dår hebbet wy gewoon reakening med te holden. Dårby skryv y in et hollandsk ouk wal historiSCH, NedersaksiSCH, neurotiSCH, terwyl as nüms dat noch uutspreaket. Beater üm et wal te skryven en et nit uut te spreaken as andersümme. Wy kryget jüüst heyle positive reaktys van junge lüde en landelik bekende artysten, dee wydter wilt kyken as öär eygene dörpke. Yts wat de hüdige skryvwysen töt nu too noch nit möägelik makeden. Nit allens wat u vrömd vöärkümt medeyne afsketen, Chamavian. Leyset anders et artikel oaver de Nysassiske Skryvwyse mär es döär. Woolters (overleg) 09:39, 25 mrt 2019 (CET)

Wat mooi! Welke landelik bekende artiesten gebruukt dizze schriefwieze, dat zo'k wal willen zeen. Misschien da'k der dan anders teagenan gao kieken. Sorry a'k wat negatief oaverkwamme. Ie hebt natuurlik geliek da'w neet alles wat nij is mot ofscheten, maor ditte is wal alderbarstend wennen, heur ;-) Chamavian

Gebruken doot se ne selv noch neet, mär wydgånde, seriöse interesse hebbet Daniël Lohues en Hendrik Jan Bökkers wal töynd. Den lätsten hevt der selvs vöär RTV Oost al es reklame vöär maked. Wennen is et vöär uns ouk noch mangs, mär probeert et mär es :-). Wår nen wil is... Woolters (overleg) 20:24, 29 apr 2019 (CEST)

Daotum[bronkode bewarken]

Det 't Nedersaksisch qua emancipatie wat achterlöp, is bekend, mar wördt det töt uutdrokking ebracht in de daotum op 't veurblad? Baovenan zie ik 'Måndag, 1 juni 2020', en onderan 'Disse syde is et lätst wysigd up 1 jun 2020 üm 22:27.'. Ni'jluuseger (overleg) 12:01, 3 jun 2020 (CEST)

Dialect policy on Dutch Low Saxon Wiki[bronkode bewarken]

Hello! I am visiting from the Rusyn Wikipedia. Rusyn is also a language with several varieties. Rusyn Wiki followed other Wikipedias in that situation in theory, but the actual policies were never laid out. If you have the time to respond, I’d like to learn more about your approach. I already found some information myself, but I'll mention that too in case you have anything to add. Thank you very much in advance!

I noticed your language policy is written down quite extensively, I will assume it is also followed in practice. Apologies for not sourcing answers from there!

  1. Is there a "default" variety option? Which variety is used in the interface, article/category names, the Wikipedia namespace etc.? Do you have separate templates for different varieties?
  2. At present, how often do people contribute edits in different varieties?
  3. According to enwiki, stubs can be re-done in a different dialect, but edits to longer articles are later adapted to the relevant dialect (I am assuming mixing varieties is not allowed). What is the process for these adaptations? Some other Wikipedias also have parallel versions of articles, but I did not find that here.
  4. Is your approach to local topics any different (e.g. prioritising the local variety)?
  5. I noticed you mention some specific orthographic conventions for various dialects. Do you require editors to follow them?
  6. Some Wikipedias in polycentric languages eventually split (e.g. Armenian). Do you think that is a possibility for your Wikipedia?

Thank you and all the best. Engelseziekte (overleg) 03:00, 12 sep 2020 (CEST)\

Hello,
At least for how as I got it:
1. The Nysassiske skryvwyse/New Saxon Spelling (NSS) has priority, but it is not forbidden to write in other writing styles. However, De Algemene Nedersaksiese Schriefwieze (ANS) and NSS are recommended. I could still for example write in the Iesselacademie spelling. On the vöärblad the writing is in NSS, article names are depended on the used writing style. The rest is still in ANS I think.
2. It depends who is here. Today mostly someone from the Veluwe, Sallaand and Tweante. It depends on how big the variety is but NDS-wikipedia always had small group of contributors.
3. Mixing varieties in one article is not allowed. As far as I know articles can be re-done in a different variety if the contributor of the first version is informed/was dsicussed with.
4. Local topics are preffered to be written in the variety of that area. It depends however, I wrote about two places in Groningen in Sallaands. I placed also in that article that it could be re-done into Grunnegs because those two places were in Groningen.
5. As stated in 1, not perse, but NSS and then ANS are prioritised but not only allowed like SASS is on DE-NDS.
6. I dont think so. There are only like 5 or 6 people writing in a year and by splitting of the local variaties into their own wikipedia would kill those wikipedias.
Grwen (overleg) 13:48, 13 sep 2020 (CEST)
Maybe Woolters, Servien and Nijluuseger can also answer on this? They are the leaders of this wikipedia. Grwen (overleg) 18:08, 13 sep 2020 (CEST)
I think you've answered Engelseziekte's questions quite satisfactorily, Grwen, thank you. Here's my two cents:
1. There is no 'default' variety, although through years of writing by a select few here, each with their own variety, you will find that certain varieties may be better represented than others. Most interface texts are in veluwsk, as they were first written by this wiki's founder, Servien, who speaks the variety from that area. The introduction of the New Saxon Orthography has made that less of a 'problem' because it helped us bring the varieties closer together optically, and now it's only a matter of 'how you read it'. That said, there's still lots of work to be done on templates, which haven't been processed yet. The old situation dictated that, depending on the chosen dialect in an article, a template should mirror the dialect. So effectively, we had about eight different versions of a template, going against the whole idea of a template :D. Since this is a small Wikipedia, and there are so many different spellings, I often add redirects to new articles in various spellings to improve findability.
2. In the Küürhook you will find the rankings of the various dialects here. We keep an infrequent tally. We've seen a shift in staff over the years, resulting in an unequal amount of articles per dialect. At one point, there used to be two or even three regular writers for Twentsk, then for Grönningsk, then there was a time the Achterhook was better represented (although one contributed articles of questionable quality, which may still require some clean-up). Recently, Grwen has upped the ante for Sallandsk.
3. Yes, one dialect per article, except when it concerns lists or collections like nedersaksische humor, where examples from every dialect are necessary to make a point. My dialect is Twentsk, although I have tried to improve the article on India in Sallandsk. Occasionally, we help each other out when we see stuff to be improved, and then notify the original author to have a look and correct where necessary. Parallel versions of some articles can be found on our NDS sister Wikipedia. The only difference often is spelling.
4. I'm not sure what you mean here. If your question is whether we write mostly on local issues, the answer is no. Of course, local culture is a major part of the body of articles here. You have to start somewhere, and the Dutch wikipedia doesn't address them, but we still believe that Low Saxon can be used to write on anything. So yes, you'll find articles on Low Saxon literature such as Over-Ysselsche_Boere-Vryagie en culture such as nåberskap, but also on more contemporary techy stuff such as Virtual Reality. If your question is whether an article on, say, the village of Enter should be written in the Entersk variety, then the answer is yes. Although the keen reader will notice in this instance I have written it in the variety of the next-door town, to hopefully spark some minor outrage and get them on board as well ;).
5. This needs some explaining. Low Saxon has no standard variety, and regional varieties have all figured out their own more or less commonly accepted spellings (a grand total of 20, currently in the Netherlands. You'll understand our desire for a unified spelling, which we created with the Nysassiske Skryvwyse). Since these spellings aren't taught in schools, nobody but a few hard-core writers strictly adhere to them, or even know about them. So, the original policy was to at least try to follow the regionally accepted spelling for your dialect (There's about three for my Twentsk alone). Then we developed the Algemene Nedersaksiese Skriefwieze (ANS), which was the first full-blown attempt at a unified spelling for the whole Dutch-based Low Saxon area. But that still didn't include the Low Saxon writers from the German wikipedia, who often don't like the High German-based Sass'sche Schriefwies'. So, in 2018, we set out to develop the NSS, which we more or less completed early 2020. The old policy still stands, with the addition that we'd very much appreciate it if you'd try the Nysassiske Skryvwyse. And if that's a bridge too far, the ANS.
6. It has already happened before, which is why there is an nds.wikipedia (Germany) and an nds-nl.wikipedia (Netherlands). The whole reason for the split was the spelling issue. There have been incubator proposals for a separate Northern Low Saxon wikipedia and a Westphalian wikipedia, but they have all been turned down. Firstly because the dialects aren't that different after all, and secondly because we're already struggling to find writers as it is. As Grwen rightly pointed out, a further split would spell the end of either wikipedia. Woolters (overleg) 09:39, 15 sep 2020 (CEST)